Raising seed limit during events

Quote from gruenkern

Did you forget that some people are collecting parentles flowers? You can't get them by breeding. Other people might want a bred flower and again others want both. It's the same problem. It might (or might not) be a good idea to get new variants only from the wild garden - you can be sure there will be somebody complaining that he must wait a year to get a bred one.

Haha, no, I didn't forget about that, because I'm one of these people I like everything parentless or with shortest possible pedigree. I'm not sure if I even LIKE this solution. I just wanted to point out it has nothing to do with Butcherbaby (or anyone else, for that matter) liking or disliking any specific variant.

If you ask me, I'd opt for more seed slots during events + very clear info about the method of getting a particular variant. Then you will still need luck and a fair amount of intelligent planning to get what you want.
Don't get me wrong, I love riddles and mysteries and challenges, but these would be perfect for stuff one can get all year round. Then experimenting is real fun. As for the events, I have enough deadline-related stress in real life to enjoy it in a game.
And as for the challenge aspect: counting on sheer luck is no challenge for me. On the other hand, planning everything in a way that gives you optimum results IS a challenge.

And one more thing: I think people don't get frustrated because of bad luck. Bad luck is what it is, lol. They get frustrated about missed opportunities. And this happens when you don't have enough information to make the right decision. Then, after the event, you keep thinking: what if I had done it differently? What if I had known? This is what annoys me. But again, it's only my opinion and no one has be like me, right?

Sooo - just to chime in for the new players - there's 7 Christmas trees - and 2 maybe 3 Christmas stars and 2 maybe 3 Christmas wreaths and a Christmas Rose... I have 2 trees so far - variation 5 and 6, 2 in pots and 2 still in boxes. That includes the post pixie one cause I didn't know to wait to open it. So I have 6 days left to raise trees, then I need to get stars, When do wreaths come out? And I need to be all clear by New Years to get the event item for that?

... I think a couple of extra seed slots would be wonderful. It's gonna take me years to get all the event stuff. Halloween I missed 3 of the variants and was lucky - one wonderful person gifted me two of them.

Quote from fkrauthan

tempestsea but is it a problem that it takes longer for you as a new player to get everything? We are still a game with challenges. And if we would gift now more or less every plants to new players old players would say why we had to wait from year to year too to get the plants.

And yes it was always complete random which variant you get if you pick up a seed since we introduced it.

And this is the problem now that we have seven possible breeds of Christmas tree in play.

If I want to pick up one of the new seeds in the Wild Garden, I have a 1/3 chance of getting a new seed and a 2/3 chance of getting an old seed. If I want to pick up a specific new seed in the garden, my chance drops to 1/6. If I want to breed a flaming tree, my chances drop to 1/7. This means that, to meet my goal of two of each variety, assuming the randomizer works out evenly, I'd have to be able to raise 24 Wild Garden trees and at least 7 bred trees. With the current number of available pots, that's not possible. Even if I could do it, in the process I'd get swamped with plants that I wasn't actually trying for, already had enough of, and which don't have any actual trade value.

The problem with the odds that you're currently using is that you're not weighting for already-existing plants. Doing this works against you because it means that older varieties become more and more common and less and less desirable, until nobody will want them anymore. The oldest (and most widely-held) Christmas trees should be the hardest to get this year, and the newest should be the most prevalent among the new seeds. You risk making people dislike the older varieties if they constantly get in the way of everyone's goals for new types.

We either need a whole lot more pots, or much better odds.

Just dreaming......

What about having a "miracle flower" (or any other object)? You can only have one of them (maybe there will be different ones when time goes by). Maybe you don't find it in the wild garden, but get it for collecting 100 snails, watering 1000 of other peoples seeds, gifting 30 plants you grew up yourself or whatever...).
This miracle can't be breed (or maybe it can and you get a random plant), but it can do something special: change the variant of a plant random or choosen by you, decrease the time a plant needs to sprout, give you an additional pot (only one seed, not for ever), water your (or maybe other peoples) plants automatically for a special amount of time or anything else you can think of. And of course you can use it only once a week/month or only on special days.
And maybe there are different miracle plants/objects, but you can only have one (two, three,...) of them, but not all. If you want an other, you have to give away the one you already have.
Of course it's not easy to get and should'nt be predictable, maybe it won't stay for ever or it will be used up sometime and it might even not always work...

I agree it's a very difficult issue, but I think the idea of recolors (variant change) has two basic flaws:
1. If it changes the plant into a RANDOM variant, you face the same issue we have now: the odds of getting the desired color are very low, and decreasing with every new variant introduced.
2. If it changes the plant into the DESIRED variant, you kill virtually ALL the challenge. I'd like to ask any Dragon Cave players here: would you really want to change all your water walker dragons into hollies? Or into CB golds? The idea might be attractive for five minutes, but the feeling of getting a holy grail is completely gone.
There are also other flaws. You introduced pedigrees (lineages) in the last year. Recoloring plants will undermine this too. What's the use of trying to get a certain pedigree if one random recolor can ruin it all?
And one more thing - although this may be only my opinion: this somehow doesn't feel "natural". I like my collected creatures to have some "history", and to be associated with certain memories. A history that can be manipulated, changed or even wiped isn't worth much, is it? In my opinion, this would only increase the chaos we are already facing.

I think the best idea would be to give old variants some more trading value by making them rarer or only obtainable by breeding. As the site allows for trading adult plants, new people can always trade for parentless plants (or breed them if they don't care about "parentless"). As it is now, our gardens hold enough old christmas tree variants to give or trade to a whole new generation of players.

Quote from lorimmel

change all your water walker dragons into hollies

No, not all. But maybe one or two?

Quote from lorimmel

A history that can be manipulated, changed or even wiped isn't worth much, is it?

True. You could allow changing of variant only for plants without offspring. And you could add variant changing to the history. Or only allow it for a week after the plant grew up.

Quote from lorimmel

only obtainable by breeding

What I really dislike at dragoncave is, that new people can't get the same as people who joined some years ago. I can never have a Frill, a Holly or simply a CB Shadow Walker. And I like them so much! If you can get old flowers only by breeding, it's the same. I don't care so much if a plant is bred or parentless, but for some people it's important. And if they want a parentless variant of everything, they should be able to get it.

Quote from gruenkern

No, not all. But maybe one or two?

Well, it wouldn't work for me. I don't want hollies that used to be water walkers. I want hollies grabbed or traded for in the christmas week, in a magic moment I will remember for years. I will remember the look of christmas tree nearby, the snow outside, and the joy of finally getting it. In my opinion, a water walker holly would be a pathetic fake.

Quote from gruenkern

What I really dislike at dragoncave is, that new people can't get the same as people who joined some years ago. I can never have a Frill, a Holly or simply a CB Shadow Walker. And I like them so much! If you can get old flowers only by breeding, it's the same. I don't care so much if a plant is bred or parentless, but for some people it's important. And if they want a parentless variant of everything, they should be able to get it.

This is because Dragon Cave doesn't allow for trading adult dragons. As I already pointed out, Flowergame DOES allow for trading adult plants. That is why a new player will ALWAYS have a chance for getting old variants. Making them rarer won't affect this!

Quote from fkrauthan

It's a really difficult problem. Because if we would change it like you say it, new players would start the same thread because they don't get the old varieties and always just get the new ones. If we would made it based on which flowers you already had the game might goes to easy or if you like to get old variants you get sad because the game thinks he should give a better chance to get the new ones then the old ones.

I think newcomers to the game are going to be less bothered by it being harder to get older varieties -- they're used to that with places like Dragon Cave, Magistream, and so on, where a lot of things aren't even available anymore -- than by not even having time to collect one/two of each of what's available, because there's a whole forest-ful of possibilities and not enough time to get them all. As lorimmel says, in a game where the adult plants can be gifted/traded, it's not going to be impossible for them to get things they missed. But if they only get the old trees too, they're going to be in the same boat as everybody else when it comes to trying to trade for the new trees -- worse, even, because they won't have anything saved up to trade with. By keeping the odds "even," you're actually turning the new trees and the flaming trees into ultra-rares that everybody will be fighting over, getting into bidding wars over, accusing each other of hoarding, and who knows what else. It has the potential to damage the non-competitive, collaborative spirit of the game that I like so much. We can't help each other get nice things if we all want them for ourselves.

I also just really want reliable rules about how/where/when to try for things.

Like, if I'd known last Halloween that the 2010 Jack-o-Lanterns were actually going to come back to the Wild Garden this year, I'd have been less likely to trade away a few valuable plants that in retrospect, I really wish I hadn't given up, just to score a bred one. Now I'm swimming in them. That... was really frustrating.

If I'd known that burning trees were never going to be in the wild garden again, I wouldn't have given up my second one for anything. I've regretted doing that ever since. I was hoping that maybe, in keeping with the Jack-o-Lantern pattern, they'd be back in the Wild Garden this December, but no such luck. So that's a major disappointment. If I'd known, before the end of the event last year, that the burning trees could be gotten by breeding, I would have actually tried breeding my trees to each other instead of just breeding Christmas Stars with them. This time I'm breeding them all, but I'm bracing myself for major disappointment. I probably won't be able to breed enough to beat the odds and get even one, and nobody's going to want my extras.

Great, my second batch also turned out to be old variants.
This is so frustrating, I´m raising those trees for nothing.... What use is it to release new variants, when you can´t get them?

Which means that there's more of a chance of getting old ones (4/6) than new ones (2/6), because you're not counting existing trees in the distribution. This is basic statistics. The older trees are already plentiful, and by making them appear equally this year, they become significantly more plentiful than the new trees.

Say there were 2,000 trees last year from the wild garden, divided among the four types that were available. That's 500 of each variety.

Now say that this year there are 3,000 trees coming from the wild garden, divided among the six types that are available. That's another 500 of each variety.

But this means that there are now 1,000 each of the older varieties and only 500 each of the newer varieties.

The older varieties immediately become only half as valuable as the new varieties, and for every chance of getting a new tree, you're twice as likely to get an old one. This is why people are getting frustrated. If this was a plant that was available all year long, people wouldn't mind. But when there's a very limited time to get something, putting that big an obstacle in the way kind of flies in the face of the spirit of the season.

All right - if you're going to make old trees just as likely as new trees, then why not also make burning trees available in the garden? Why have that ONE type be the only exception? If you have the ability to be able to make "exceptions" (as you obviously do), then why not make it so that 1) old trees can be gotten by breeding, and 2) new trees are gotten in the garden? Why change what you have been doing for the past several years?

And when you do the Christmas Stars, PLEASE announce what is going to happen with those. If you're also going to make all varieties of the Star available whether breeding a poinsettia with a Christmas tree, or whether breeding two Christmas Stars together, then please say so in the announcement. But if either means is going to be more or less likely to breed the new type, please ALSO say so. I, personally, like getting exactly three (or multiples of three) of any given type; I'm OCD, and to me this balances my garden out the best. Last year we got 2011 Stars by breeding poinsettias with trees, and if we wanted the 2010 Stars, we were told to breed two older Stars together. That was a good system; we knew what to expect, and if we only wanted the new type, we could plan for it. We could also breed older types and drop them in the wild for newer members to get if they wanted them, too.

Since you didn't let us know what you were planning with the Christmas trees, please at least let us know what you are planning with the Stars. That way we won't be shocked at any departure from everything you've done in the past, if you're going to do that to us again.

Gerede bei Stern der Weihnacht hat man 2 x 3 Zuchtmöglichkeiten. Wenn die erste Zuchtwelle reift, befindet man sich bereits in der Glücksklee-Saison. Es ist glatt und sauber unmöglich, Statistik zu betreiben, gar eine vage Schlussfolgerung für einen weiteren *Truppen*versuch zu ziehen. Alle werden das bekannte tun und hoffen, dass die Meisterin vielleicht wieder ein Edelteilchen kreiert hat. Was soll anderes sein?

Wie im RL könnte die große Spannung bei Alltagsroutine, bei den regulären Pflanzen liegen. Doch man kennt fast nur zufällig züchten und traden/tauschen.

Feine Möglichkeiten zeigt die Rose. 2 Varianten sind nur durch Kreuzung erlangbar. Das ist aber noch gar nicht so prickelnd. Man züchtet sowieso, da man ja alle Varianten benötigt und sich vielleicht an großen Stammbäumen erfreuen mag.

Wie gelangt man an eine schinscherin-grüne Rose? Vielleicht muss man schwarz + violett/weiß kreuzen? Es kann lange dauern, bis sowas rausgefunden wird. Gibt es solche Geheimnisse, werden sich Aufschreibungen lohnen. Man kann sich als Züchter spezialisieren und hoffen, einen großen Durchbruch zu erlangen. Solche Kostbarkeiten wird man dann gegen andere Kostbarkeiten tauschen. Flowergame würde im Spannungsfaktor ungemein steigen. Der Aufwand für ein solches Zuchtsystem wäre enorm. Doch bereits an der Rose sieht man, dass bereits die Startwege eine riesige Freude bereiten.

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One has gossip with Christmas Star 2 x 3 breeding possibilities. If the first breeding wave matures, one is already in the Cucky Clover season. It is smooth and cleanly impossible to pursue statistics, to pull even a vague conclusion for other *troops*try :P. Everything will do the known one and hope that the master craftswoman maybe again has created a noble particle. What should be other?

As in the RL the big tension could lie by the everydays routine, by the regular plants. However, one knows almost only by chance breed and exchange.

The rose shows fine possibilities. 2 variations are attainable only by crossing. However, so it is not so tingling at all. One breeds anyhow, because one needs all variations and may maybe take pleasure in big family trees.

How does one reach to a schinscherin-green rose? Perhaps one must cross black violet / white It can last long, until something so found out. If there are such secrets, Writings will be worthwhile. One can specialize as a breeder and hope to attain a big breakthrough. One will exchange such precious objects then for other precious objects. Flowergame would rise in the tension factor uncommon. The expenditure for such a breeding system would be huge. However, already by the rose one sees that already the starting ways prepare a gigantic joy.

On the "pay for perks" topic that was active earlier this year, I said that the best paid "advantages" were small conveniences that made it quicker/easier to care for your garden on a daily basis and not the ability to buy yourself a complete garden within a couple months of starting. I spoke about competitiveness and perfectionism, and was told that those things don't exist here. Obviously they do. I have been here 3 years and have not got a burning tree. I also don't have several of the Valentine's hearts, nor do I have all the Marvel Ferns, Audreys or Jack-o-Lanterns. (Please don't start gifting them to me, I would like to try to get them myself, because I like the challenge).
This is a free game. You truly don't have to pay a cent to have everything everyone else has, and you can't say that on most browser games. Most sites live by making it impossible to achieve goals without paying or by having the prettiest/most desirable things be limited edition paid items. Heck, not only can't you get them if you don't pay, you can't get them if you don't pay in the right week of the right year.
Here anyone can join today and have a chance to get some old Christmas trees. We who didn't get them all last year have a chance to get them this year. And as long as the team doesn't change the whole tone of the game, I'll still have a chance to get this year's new ones next year.
I think we are stupendously lucky to have stumbled upon a place that has stellar art and caring admins, a place that's run at a financial loss because its owners receive joy from giving us joy. Isn't that what Christmas is about, anyway? Giving joy to others without asking or demanding something in return? The Flowergame team does that all year long. Maybe it's not exactly the way you wanted it to be or what you expected to get, but you're not guaranteed that in real life, either (especially when dealing with husbands).

Quote from fkrauthan

We haven't changed anything. Please don't expect that we gift you everything without a little bit of work. Flowergame is still a browser game and in a browser game you have secrets to figure out (if not there wouldn't be any fun left). If no one founds a solution we give you hints. And you share the solutions too. It is a little bit unfair what some of you thinking about us.

I agree! There should be a little work here. I do not mind having extras of plants I already have because I can trade them or give them away later. I do understand that short timeframes can be frustrating if you want to "collect them all" but this site is not dragoncave where you have only one chance to get them all! Plants come back every year and adults can be traded. I am glad this is not DragonCave: I like the relaxed atmosphere.

There is nothing wrong with giving gifts. If you give a newbie the plant you already have, they will see we are kind and me more likely to also give gifts. There is nothing wrong with trading although I wish there was a better trade system. That's a little off-topic though! If you trade reasonably the "prices" of plants stay fair. Don't turn this into Dragoncave by being greedy!

On the starting subject "Should we have extra seed slots for the holidays", I say "Maybe if you work for them!" To stay with the theme, the post pixie could gift you extra seasonal seeds if you do various kind acts like watering others' plants or breeding and giving away seasonal seeds via the gift link. Extra slots should not be free as it's less fun when things are given to you with no work! However, any work should be fair to what you gain and should not take more than 20 minutes.

That's my thoughts anyway.

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Ich stimme zu! Es sollte ein wenig Arbeit hier. Ich habe nichts dagegen, dass Extras der Pflanzen, die ich bereits habe, denn ich kann sie eintauschen oder sie später verschenken. Ich verstehe, dass die kurze Zeitrahmen sehr frustrierend sein können, wenn Sie "sammeln sie alle" möchten aber diese Seite nicht Dragoncave ist, wo Sie haben nur eine Chance, um sie alle! Pflanzen kommen jedes Jahr wieder und Erwachsene können gehandelt werden. Ich bin froh, dass dies nicht DragonCave: Ich mag die entspannte Atmosphäre.

Es gibt nichts falsch mit der Vergabe von Geschenken. Wenn Sie einem Neuling die Anlage geben Sie bereits besitzen, sie werden sehen, dass wir Art und mir sind eher auch Geschenke. Es ist nichts falsch mit dem Handel, obwohl ich wünschte, es gäbe ein besseres Handelssystem. Das ist zwar ein wenig off-Topic! Wenn Sie vernünftig handeln bleiben die "Preise" Pflanzen fair. Machen Sie nicht dies Dragoncave durch sein gierig!

Zum ersten Thema "Sollten wir zusätzliche Saatgut-Steckplätze für den Urlaub haben", sage ich "Vielleicht, wenn Sie für sie zu arbeiten!" Mit dem Thema zu bleiben, könnte die Post-Pixie Sie zusätzliche saisonale Samen Geschenk Wenn Sie verschiedenen freundlichen Acts wie Bewässerung von anderen Pflanzen oder Zucht und verlosen saisonale Samen über den Geschenk-Link tun. Zusätzliche Steckplätze sollten nicht frei sein, da es weniger Spaß macht, wenn Sie Dinge ohne Arbeit gegeben werden! Jede Arbeit sollte jedoch fair, was Sie bekommen und sollte nicht mehr als 20 Minuten dauern.

Das ist meine Gedanken ohnehin.

I have two ideas how it could be solved:

Solution 1
During each event, Post Pixie brings one or two seeds to every player. These seeds are ALWAYS the new variant(s). Other seeds (bred or wild) still have even odds to become any variant (new or older one). This should be easy to implement.

Solution 2
The seeds (bred or wild) have 50% chance to become the new variant(s). The other 50% is divided between all the variants from previous years (even odds). This would have to be changed every year, as new variants are introduced.

I hope it makes sense.