German and English practice thread/Deutsches und englisches Praxisgewinde

Well. SnowPlow, Dein Text bietet inbteressantes Übungs-Material.

", aber ich noch nicht durchaus verstehe die Satzstruktur"
Hauptsatz = "ich verstehe"
Erst danach folgen Attribute, Objekte usw.
"noch nicht" ist eine klare Aussage. Mittels "durchaus" relativierst du es. Die Relation steht im Deutschen vor der Aussage. Insgesamt wird nun:
", aber ich verstehe durchaus noch nicht die Satzstruktur".
Objekt kann das Attribut vor der Aussage stehen:
", aber ich verstehe die Satzstruktur durchaus noch nicht ".
Bei der oberen Reihenfolge dominiert die Aussage, bei der unteren dominiert das Objekt. Der Sprecher entscheidet durch die Reihenfolge, was er stärker betonen möchte.

Nach dem Beispiel-Satz würde ich enden, einen neuen Satz beginnen. So wird es klarer. Obendrein beinhaltet das nachfolgende ein eigenes Thema.

Dann wird es schwierig. Der Übersetzer zeigt Mängel. Er versteht ja den Sinn des Textes nicht. Außerdem zeigt er gravierende Schwächen. Englisch: "I'm" wird im Deutschen grundsätzlich nicht zerlegt. Es bedeutet: "Ich bin". Er *machte hier Quatsch*, es ergeben sich weitere Sinnlosigkeiten:
"I' m, das mit englischer Grammatik, aber nicht groß sind,"
Das meinte:
"Ich bin mit englischer Grammatik (noch) nicht (sehr) vertraut, aber..."

Ein entscheidender Punkt ist, dass es für den Übenden zunächst sehr schwer ist, in Übersetzungen die passenden Begriffe zu finden:
"ich würden bereit sein, Zeiger zu geben, wenn jedermann Hilfe beim Lernen von Englisch benötigt."
Hier passt besser: Zeiger = Hinweise, jedermann = jemand. ("jedermann" meint: "alle").
Es ergibt sich:
"... aber ich würden bereit sein, Hinweise zu geben, wenn jemand Hilfe beim Lernen von Englisch benötigt."

Gut. Zum weiteren muss ich allerdings sage, dass Übersetzer wohl immer eine Krücke bleiben werden. Damals erklärte uns die Kurs-Lehrerin, dass man ins Englische nicht übersetzen sondern mit eigenen Worten nacherzählen soll. So erhält man das bestmögliche Ergebnis und wird mit der Übung die andere Sprache immer besser verstehen. ... Oh, ich will jetzt aber doch einen Übersetzer (IM-Translator (Plugin zum Firefox)) nutzen, sonst wird der Zeitaufwand zu hoch.

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Well. SnowPlow, your text offers inbteressantes practise-material.

", but I yet absolutely do not understand the sentence structure "
Main clause = " I understand"
Only afterwards attributes, objects follow etc.
"yet" is not a clear statement. By means of "absolutely" you qualify it. The relation stands into German before the statement. Now all together becomes:
", but I do not understand absolutely yet the sentence structure ".
Object the attribute can stand before the statement:
", but I do not understand the sentence structure absolutely yet ".
With the upper order there dominates the statement, with the lower ones there dominates the object. The speaker decides by the order what he would stronger like to stress.

After the example I would end, begin a new sentence. Thus it becomes clearer. In addition contain the following one own subject.

Then it becomes difficult. The translator shows defects. He does not understand the sense of the text. In addition, he shows serious weaknesses. In English: "I'm" is not disassembled into German basically. It signifies: " I am ".
He *was making nonsense here*, it other futilities arise:
" I'm which with English grammar, but are not big, "
This meant:
" I am familiar with English grammar (still) not (so much),

A determining point is that it is very difficult for the practicing at first to find the suitable concepts in translations:
" I would be ready to give pointer if each needs help with the learning from English. "
Here better fits: Pointer = tips, each = somebody. ("each" means: "everbody").
It turns out:
" ..., however, I would be ready to give tips if somebody needs help with the learning from English. "

Well. However, to the other one I must go says that translators probably remain always a crutch. At that time the course teacher explained to us that one into English do not translate separate with own words should retell. Thus one receives the best possible result and will understand with the practise the other language better and better.... Oh, now, however, I want to use a translator (IM translator (Plugin for the Firefox)), but the time involved becomes too high.

To be honest, i think it's kinda impossible to explain german grammar in a forum thread, unless one of us is a studied teacher or even professor. Another problem is that "mastering" a language does not come by only growing up in a certain country. Most of people cannot tell if a "das" or "dass" is needed in written language, a lot of people (i assume, like at least 50%) cannot use "[ihr] seid" ([you] are) and "seit" (since) properly in written language, and it scares me how many people use "denn" (because) instead of "dann" ("after that", "then") when they are just telling what happened. I also experienced that a lot of people in the central regions in Germany - specially Hessen, whyever - cannot compare - at least, their grammar for that is not correct. (Example: "Peter is as big as Paul, but he is bigger than Mary." - Some would say "Peter is so groß wie Paul aber größer wie Maria". Correct it is: "Peter ist so groß wie Paul aber größer als Maria.")

I have to confess, that all this Subjekt-Prädikat-Objekt-thingie has been a torture at school for me. I am afraid, i never really understood german that way, or at least not directly, maybe, i don't know. Aztekior gave some valueable hints, though, try to keep them in mind. But maybe i can help you a bit, too, i will try.

When i was in school, there was a little (but useful) trick: Whatever describes the time has to be at the beginning or the end of a sentence. How to remind that? "Time" in german is "Zeit". "Zeit" starts with a "z", which is last in alphabet. (And with some physical knowledge, you may discuss that time was the first that had to exist before anything else could do, Big Bang, Hawking, ... you've got the picture).

You are allowed to for forget that rule if you try to create a beutiful german sentence. Time - where you place its adverbs in a german sentence - does not matter. There's another rule which is more important: "Die gebeugte Verbform steht in einem Hauptsatz an erster oder zweiter Stelle. In einem Nebensatz ist sie an letzter Stelle."

The so-called "gebeugte Verbform" (i am not sure if it's correctly translated - "finite verb form"?) has to be at first or second place in a "major sentence" (?), it is last in a "minor sentence".

Why do i think that this is helpful? It helps you to put commata at the right place, because minor sentences have to be divided by commata. That may help you to gain some structure.

Some examples to explain:

"Während Hendrik fernsah, schrieb Luise einen Brief." (While Hendrik was watching TV, Luise wrote a letter.) The main clause/ main sentence is the part of writing. You can spot the "gebeugte Verbform" by changing either "persons" or the tense or changing the composition: Luise schrieb einen Brief, während Hendrik fernsah. Während ihr fernseht, schreiben wir einen Brief. Note, that the forms of "schreiben" is stil kind of 2nd place in these "normal" sentences, if you see the minor sentence about watching TV as taking only one place. If you only switch these both part of the sentence but do no change the single words within the minor sentences, you will get either questions or instructions. (To Luise) Schreib einen Brief, während Hendrik fernsieht! Schreiben wir einen Brief, während ihr fernseht? Please note, that if you have composed time forms like Perfekt, Plusquamperfekt or Futur II, the verb "haben" resp. "sein" will be the one that changes. Während er ferngesehen hat, hat sie einen Brief geschrieben. Während du fernsehen wirst, werde ich einen Brief schreiben.

You've got that? Great. Now some practise for advanced. Tell me if these sentences are correct and what the "gebeugte Verbform" is: Sie waren dort. Abends standen Elfen unter der Eiche. Unter der Eiche hatte sich abends eine große Anzahl Elfen versammelt. Die weisesten, stärksten und geschicktesten Elfen wollten sich beraten und kamen noch vor Sonnenuntergang zur alten Eiche, die den Mittelpunkt der Siedlung bildete, um zu erörtern, wie sie den kürzlich eingegangenen Pakt mit den Menschen am besten würdigen könnten. 

In my opinion, the best way you could learn a language is the training itself. Of corse, you need words and you need to know some things about grammar. But as soon as you have basics, try to use them. Read books. Hear music and try to understand the songs. Watch TV shows or films, if you dare, you also could install some games in another language. And do not underestimate the real language of real people. Like: If you cannot afford visiting a country (and even if you could - don't expect you could understand Bavarians, even a lot of Germans do not), don't be shy and try to practise at forums like these or to look out for a penpal. It's called implicit learning. So, as long as you are not sure about structures, go with the principle of K.I.S.S.: "Keep it short & simple." It avoids mistakes.

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If anyone really needs a translation, please tell me. Or maybe i'll add later. // Falls jemand ernsthaft 'ne Übersetzung will, sagt mir bescheid. Oder vielleicht mach ich's auch freiwillig... später...

Aunt €dith found a typo and kept it.

Quote from SnowPlow

Thanks for telling me. I think that I understand that...I had assumed that nouns were all considered to be either male or female, regardless of actual gender. I also hadn't previously understood the difference between haben and habe. Thank you...your example and explanation helped very much!
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Dank für das Erklären mir. Ich denke, dass ich verstehe, dass… ich, dass alle Gegenstandswörter betrachtet wurden, entweder Mann oder Frau zu sein, unabhängig davon tatsächliches Geschlecht angenommen hatte. Ich auch hatte nicht vorher verstanden, dass der Unterschied zwischen und habe haben. Danke… Ihr Beispiel und Erklärung, die sehr viel geholfen werden!

The thi ng about nouns is even more complicated in German, we have female, male and neutral Nouns. Female nouns have as article "die", male nouns have as article "der" and neutral nouns have as article "das". And wether a noun is female, male or neutral is often different from other languages which confuses the foreign speakers a lot.